Posts by jonathan dough

12

Why Joe Rutherford was a "JUDGE"?

by Albert Einstein in

never found an answer to that.. was he really a judge for some time?

how do you get such title?

was it legal for him to use it?.

Jonestown cult and the JWs

by jonathan dough in

jw
friends

anyone see the recent cnn special on jonestown?

it really bothered me, particularly when listening to the survivors talk about the amount of control exerted over them; they were afraid, terrified, couldn't just walk away, family members were snitching on each other, families were split up in the end, tugged out of arms, they were well dressed seemingly happy people who were clapping and cheering until you looked in their eyes.. the similarities with the jws isstaggering.

jones preached obedience, obedience, obedience.

jonathan dough

I used to worry about a mass suicide with the jws, but as my dear husband points out, mass suicide would't be profitable to the Watchtower. That being said, however, a cult is a cult.

It's not always about profit. The occult doesn't cast spells for monetary gain; it's also about control.

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html#intro

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

jonathan dough

and why did the birth of gods kingdom in 1914 usher in the most violent period of human history??

It wasn't the birth of God's kingdom.

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-2.html#IV

The return of Jesus Christ to earth, his Second Coming, did not occur in 1914, nor did Jesus begin to rule God’s kingdom in 1914. He began his rule in the first century A.D. and received more than a subsidiary share of the kingdom of God. Furthermore, the first judgment day did not begin in 1914 and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are not currently separating the sheep (the Great Crowd) from the goats on behalf of God Almighty.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that there are two kingdoms over which Christ rules. The first kingdom is called the “kingdom of the son of his love” (the New Covenant kingdom) and is a spiritual kingdom with Christ as head over the 144,000 only. This kingdom was brought into existence through the shed blood of Christ under the New Covenant God spoke of through Jeremiah at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and inaugurated at Pentecost. Only the 144,000, Christ and God are parties to the New Covenant with Christ acting as mediator for a short while.

The New Covenant, and presumably the kingdom, expires when “… all of the ‘Israel of God’ (the 144,000) are resurrected to immortality in the heavens” (Insight, 524; parenthesis added). This means that the eternal New Covenant, in furtherance of and pursuant to which Jesus gave his life, lasts approximately two thousand years because the resurrection of the 144,000 began in 1918 and will conclude shortly (Climax Book, 103, 277). The following is their description of the New Covenant kingdom.

“The Kingdom of the Son of His Love.” Ten days after Jesus’ ascension to heaven, on Pentecost of 33 C.E., his disciples had evidence that he had been “exalted to the right hand of God” when Jesus poured out holy spirit upon them. (Ac 1:8,9; 2:1-4, 29-33) The “new covenant” thus became operative toward them, and they became the nucleus of a new “holy nation,” spiritual Israel. - Heb 12:22-24; 1 Pet 2:9, 10; Ga 6:16.
Christ was now sitting at his Father’s right hand and was the Head over this congregation. (Eph 5:23; Heb 1:3; Php 2:9-11) The Scriptures show that from Pentecost 33 C.E. onward, a spiritual kingdom was set up over his disciples. When writing to the first-century Christians at Colossae, the apostle Paul referred to Jesus Christ as already having a kingdom: “[God] delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.” Col 1:13; compare Ac 17:6, 7.
Christ’s kingdom from Pentecost of 33 C.E. onward has been a spiritual one ruling over spiritual Israel, Christians who have been begotten by God’s spirit to become the spiritual children of God. (Joh 3:3, 5, 6) When such spirit-begotten Christians receive their heavenly reward, they will no longer be earthly subjects of the spiritual kingdom of Christ, but they will be kings with Christ in heaven. - Re 5:9, 10. (Insight, 169).
These spirit-begotten, anointed brothers of Christ become under-priests of the High Priest, “a royal priesthood.” (1 Pe 2:9; Re 5:9, 10; 20:6) These do a priestly work, a “public service” (Php 2:17), and are called “ministers of a new covenant.” (2 Cor 3:6) These called ones must follow Christ’s steps closely, faithfully, until laying down their lives in death; Jehovah will then make them a kingdom of priests, making them sharers in divine nature and will reward them with immortality and incorruption as joint heirs in the heavens with Christ. (1 Pe 2:21; Ro 6:3, 4; 1 Cor 15:53; 1 Pet 1:4; 2 Pet 1:4) The purpose of the covenant is to take out a people for Jehovah’s name as a part of Abraham’s “seed.” (Ac 15:14) They become the “bride” of Christ, and are the body of persons whom Christ takes into a covenant for the Kingdom to rule with Him. (Joh 3:29; 2 Cor 11:2; Re 21:9; Lu 22:29; Re 1:4-6; 5:9, 10; 20:6) The purpose of the new covenant requires that it continue in operation until all of the “Israel of God” are resurrected to immortality in the heavens. (Insight, 524).

The second kingdom, the real kingdom of God, is the “kingdom of our lord and of his Christ” (the 1914 kingdom). It began in 1914 at “the end of the “appointed times of the nations” and is over all mankind on earth” (Insight, 169; Reasoning, 95-97). The 1914 kingdom lasts forever. The 1914 kingdom, or “God’s kingdom” over which Jesus began to rule is of “greater proportions and bigger dimensions…” than the New Covenant kingdom, but Jesus received only a “subsidiary share” in the 1914 kingdom of God.

“Kingdom of Our Lord and of His Christ.” The apostle John, writing toward the close of the first century C.E., foresaw through a divine revelation the future time when Jehovah God, by means of his Son, would make a new expression of divine rulership. At that time, as in the time of David’s bringing the Ark up to Jerusalem, it would be said that Jehovah ‘has taken his great power and begun ruling as king. This would be the time for loud voices in heaven to proclaim: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” - Re 11:15, 17; 1 Ch 16:1, 31.
It is “our Lord,” the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, who asserts his authority over “the kingdom of the world,” setting up a new expression of his sovereignty toward our earth. He gives to his son, Jesus Christ, a subsidiary share in that Kingdom, so that it is termed “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ.” This Kingdom is of greater proportions and bigger dimensions than “the kingdom of the Son of his love,” spoken of at Colossians 1:13. “The Kingdom of the Son of his love” began at Pentecost 33 C.E. and has been over Christ’s anointed disciples; “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ” is brought forth at the end of the “appointed times of the nations” and is over all mankind on earth. - Lu 21:24. (Insight, 169).

This return of Christ in 1914 is the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ version of the Second Coming of Christ, or advent of his presence (Greek parousia), and ushers in the first of three judgment days mentioned at Matthew 25:31-46 where Jehovah’s Witnesses through their door-to-door ministry are separating the earth’s sheep and goats for judgment and destruction.

Upon closer examination of Scripture, however, it is evident that Christ did not return in 1914 to establish and preside over God’s kingdom; Christ began his rule of God’s kingdom, over the entire universe for that matter, in the first century A.D.. The 1914 kingdom cannot be separated from the New Covenant kingdom established by Christ’s blood in the first century. And any valid authority or relationship, or attributes of the 1914 kingdom were granted or realized in the first century and derived from and grounded in the New Covenant and the real kingdom of God related thereto. Consequently, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are gravely mistaken in believing that they are separating the sheep from the goats on behalf of God because the judgment day of Mathew 25:31-46 lies in the future.

First, incontrovertible archeological, historical and scriptural evidence proves that Jesus Christ could not have returned in 1914. The Jehovah’s Witnesses derive the year 1914 by counting forward 2,520 years from the date Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E.. Jerusalem, however, was not destroyed in 607 B.C.E. but in 587/586 B.C.E. and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unable to provide a single shred of evidence to the contrary. The issues are numerous and beyond the scope of this paper, but serious students are encouraged to read the online article “Why the Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong believing that the Second Coming of Christ occurred in 1914 and that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E.” at www.jonathan.freehyperspace.com/

Second, Revelation 11:15 (ESV), which the Jehovah’s Witnesses base the establishment of their 1914 kingdom on, is chronologically unsustainable. It provides in part “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever,” but the events in this verse happen after the beginning of the Great Tribulation, not ninety years before. It is heralded by the seventh trumpet, after the six seals are opened, the 144,000 are sealed, the six trumpets are blown and second woe has passed, all of which still lies in the future. Then the seventh angel blows his trumpet. Furthermore, Revelation 11:15-18 occurs after the two witnesses at 11:1-12 are commissioned and taken up to heaven which the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim happened in the 1930s, after 1914.

Third, the true Second Coming of Christ takes place after the Great Tribulation, not years before as the Jehovah’s Witnesses contend.

21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. (Matt. 24:21)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matt. 24:29)

This reference to Christ’s return “immediately” (Greek eutheos meaning directly, i.e. at once or soon, straightaway, forthwith [Vine’s]), follows the pending Great Tribulation, not the tribulation Jerusalem experienced when it was destroyed by Rome in 70 A.D because the pending Great Tribulation shall be the worst that will ever be. Since the slaughter of the 20th century world wars makes Jerusalem’s destruction pale in comparison, Christ’s Second Coming still awaits mankind.

Fourth, Christ did not wait 1,900 years to receive a mere “subsidiary share” of God’s kingdom. He received it all when he rose from the dead and ascended to the throne in heaven to sit at God’s right hand.

18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (Matt. 28:18 NWT)
10 And so YOU are possessed of a fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority. (Col. 2:10 NWT)

Ephesians 1:20-22 invalidates the Jehovah's Witnesses version of the temporary New Covenant kingdom and their 1914 subsidiary kingdom which are not separate kingdoms at all.

... which he worked in Christ, raising him from the dead and seating him at his right hand in the heavens, far above every principality, authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things beneath his feet, ... (NAB)

This Scripture renders their temporary New Covenant invalid because it clearly states that Christ's kingdom authority and power applies to the next age and covers more than the 144,000. And, Christ's share in the 1914 kingdom is total, not partial, and that rule began in he first century, not 1914.

Fifth, Colossians 2:10 clearly indicates that Jesus did not wait until 1914 to become head of every principality and power, but assumed that role in the first century, and therefore the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ reliance on Revelation 12:7-12 is misplaced because these verses make no reference to when Christ began to rule, or that it began in 1914.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time. (Rev. 12:7-12 NWT).

Associating these verses with the hurling of Satan out of heaven allegedly in 1914 (Reasoning, 96-97) only begs the question of when Christ began to rule and when Satan was dislodged. Daniel indicates that Christ began to rule God’s kingdom in the first century when he rose to heaven, on the clouds.

13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with (“on” NAB) the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin. (Dan. 7:13, 14 NWT)

Christ began to rule God’s kingdom when he ascended to heaven after his crucifixion in the first century. He did not wait to rule until 1914 right before he descended to earth invisibly. This is made all the more evident by John when he referred to the resurrected Jesus as the then “Ruler of the kings of the earth,” that is, during the first century (Rev. 1:5 NWT). Accordingly, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ claim that “… in 1914 Christ began ruling as King,” is incorrect (Great Man, ch. 132, 3).

Without any scriptural support the Jehovah’s Witnesses also assume Satan was not hurled out of heaven until 1914 and attempt to attach the establishment of God’s kingdom to this event as well.

The establishment of God’s kingdom is here associated with the hurling of Satan out of heaven. This had not occurred at the time of rebellion in Eden, as is shown in Job chapters 1, 2. Revelation was recorded in 96 C.E., and Revelation 1:1 shows that it deals with events then future. (Reasoning, 233)

It appears they have failed to identify the proper issues. We are dealing with the New Testament, not the Old Testament, and any references to the book of Job are irrelevant. And even though Revelation might have been recorded in 96 A.D., their claim that Revelation deals only with then-future events is mistaken. Chapter 12 is obviously a flashback in time referring to Christ’s birth, death, resurrection and ascension to heaven. That he took the throne of God’s kingdom in verses 10 and 11 in the first century and not the 20th century is clear by the description of the persecution of the woman who gave birth to Christ, and the woman’s offspring - the Church of Christian believers.

3 And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child.
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.
7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a oud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
13 Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth. 17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus. (Rev. 12:3-17 NWT)

Satan and the Roman empire did not wait until 1914 to wage war against Christians but did so, viciously, beginning in the first century. Accordingly, not only did salvation, power, God’s kingdom and Christ’s authority come before Christian persecution began, but the hurling of Satan to earth associated with the so-called 1914 kingdom happened at Christ’s ascension or thereabouts before the onslaught of Christian persecution, not 1,900 years later.

Sixth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have gone to great length to push God’s kingdom and the kingdom’s priesthood, and the events of Revelation 11:15, 12:10, and others, into the 20th and 21st century. As stated, they believe “Revelation was recorded in 96 B.C.E. and Rev 1:1 shows it deals with events then future” (Reasoning, 233), but this is simply not true. Revelation by no means speaks exclusively of future events but includes past and then-current events. And, as just mentioned, Revelation 12:4, 5 recounts the birth of Christ and his ascension to God and His throne, all of which occurred more than fifty years prior to the book’s writing.

Indeed, John was instructed “write what things you saw, and what things are, and what things are about to occur after these things” (Rev. 1:19, Green’s Literal Translation). Furthermore, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Bible states of John: “By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day …” (Rev. 1:10). Elsewhere they claim that the “Lord’s day” was 1914: then came to pass “the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ,” and “that ‘by inspiration’ he was transported forward in time to the ‘Lord’s day‘” in 1914 (Great Man, ch. 132, 2,3).

But the Bible does not say that. A literal reading provides “I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord’s day …” (Green’s Literal). He was not transported to the Lord’s day. The Lord’s day was Sunday (NAB n. 1, 10. See also N. Turner, Peake’s Commentary, 1046), the day he was caught up in the Spirit and began to see visions.

This is brought out by the concurrent and following chapters of Revelation. John’s immediate vision was of Christ who instructed him as to what he should write down (Rev. 1:5-29) beginning with letters to the seven churches in the first century. (Rev. chapters 2-4). Afterwards he envisions the Great Tribulation and only much later events surrounding Christ’s Second Coming or parousia, which could not, therefore, have occurred in 1914. Jesus said as much at Matthew 24:29,30, that his parousia, or Second Coming, would happen after the Great Tribulation, not before.

This is a very significant point; it is understandable why the Jehovah’s Witnesses insist that all the events of Revelation take place after 96 A.D.; otherwise, it would undermine any attempt to establish God’s “1914 kingdom” and the New Covenant priesthood (which they claim is not established in heaven until their first resurrection of the 144,000 beginning in 1918) in the first century, where they rightfully belong.

Pushing every event or claim in Revelation into the future is so important to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ 1914 kingdom and New Covenant priesthood theories that they apparently interpreted scripture in their New World Translation to cast other then-past and current events forward in time. To illustrate, a literal translation by Green of Revelation 1:5,6 provides that Jesus “…made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father ….” This means that the first century Christians were already part of the established God’s kingdom which included a priesthood. All Christian believers were, and are, priests of this priesthood. And it is this kingdom into which they were transferred at Colossians 1:13; “…he transferred us to the kingdom of the son of his love.”

As mentioned earlier, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that this latter New Covenant kingdom at verse 1:13 is a completely separate, temporary kingdom for only the 144,000, but Revelation 1:5, 6 associates, or ties, both kingdoms together and regards them as the same, in effect pulling the so-called 1914 kingdom and its associated kingdom of priests back to the first century, thereby correctly including it in the New Covenant kingdom. What they have actually done is move God’s kingdom up to 1914, moved the Second Coming back to 1914, and combined them.

To counter this reality the Jehovah’s Witnesses changed the words “made us,” past tense, to mean a future event: “made us to be a kingdom, priests …” (Rev. 1:6 NWT). They did the same in Revelation 5:10, changing “you made us kings and priests…” (Green’s Literal) to read “… and you made them to be a kingdom of priests to our God.” Peter disagrees with their interpretation at 1 Peter 2:9: “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own …” (NAB). He did not recognize two kingdom priesthoods separated by 1,900 years. They were not to become a royal priesthood.

By reading these verses relating to the kingdom priesthood together it is evident that the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New Covenant kingdom priesthood and events associated with the so-called “1914 kingdom of God” began in the first century and they are not separate kingdoms, which is exactly what God purposed when he entered into a covenant relationship with King David.

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

jonathan dough

I belive in the rensom but why has it taken 2000 years and nothing has happened???

Patience.

25

Kelle Jarka (jw elder) found guilty and sentenced Friday for murdering jw wife

by blondie in

jw
friends

i wonder if he will be df'd....probably not.. http://www.swrnn.com/southwest-riverside/2009-11-04/news/jarka-case-murrieta-man-expected-to-be-sentenced-friday-for-murder-of-wife.

jarka case: murrieta man expected to be sentenced friday for murder of wife.

posted by jose.arballo on november 4, 2009 @ 2:22 pm in courts, crime, local news, news | 1 comment.

jonathan dough

During the trial, prosecutor Burke Strunsky described Jarka as a man so enamored with his upper-middle-class lifestyle and position within his congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, that he was willing to sacrifice the life of his loving wife to maintain it.

Pretty sad when you're willing to kill your wife to maintain your 'position' in the congregation---especially as there's not supposed to be any hierachy amongst God's Chosen Ones.

That's just an argument. Maybe he just wanted the money.

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

jonathan dough

Thanks again, this has been fun, but I'm literally afraid to read your document further there is so much wrong with it

Baloney. You're afraid to read it because it proves you horribly incorrect and you know it.

http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

jonathan dough

Salvation is individual, personal, not corporate.

That's a great line. Not corporate!

Here is maybe where we disagree. I don't think Jeremiah wrote Scripture, or Isaiah, or Ezekiel etc. I honestly believe it was the Almighty using Jeremiah, so even if Jeremiah thought he was only speaking to that time, God intended it to apply to the future. Same with the Book of Daniel. Daniel or whoever wrote it didn't understand what he was writing. He was just the pen when it came to his prophecies. Same with John at Revelation.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the (or one of) central piece of Christianity. You being a Christian, I'm surprised you don't see this. Much of Scripture has dual application.

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html#I

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

jonathan dough

My thoughts represent the views of contemporary, conventional, middle-of-the-road scholarship.

I'm so burned out on this stuff my mind is shrinking. I don't want it to disappear altogether. Let's let this one lie, although feel free to post some links to your references. My views are pretty orthodox, conventional. Lil is on the right track. Christianity is all about the New Covenant. Where is PSsacramento? He seems to be up on this a bit and has some views. You out there? Maybe a separate thread on the NC?

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#trinity-home

75

Jonestown cult and the JWs

by jonathan dough in

jw
friends

anyone see the recent cnn special on jonestown?

it really bothered me, particularly when listening to the survivors talk about the amount of control exerted over them; they were afraid, terrified, couldn't just walk away, family members were snitching on each other, families were split up in the end, tugged out of arms, they were well dressed seemingly happy people who were clapping and cheering until you looked in their eyes.. the similarities with the jws isstaggering.

jones preached obedience, obedience, obedience.

jonathan dough

Anyone see the recent CNN special on Jonestown? It really bothered me, particularly when listening to the survivors talk about the amount of control exerted over them; they were afraid, terrified, couldn't just walk away, family members were snitching on each other, families were split up in the end, tugged out of arms, they were well dressed seemingly happy people who were clapping and cheering until you looked in their eyes.

The similarities with the JWs isstaggering. Jones preached obedience, obedience, obedience. They poisoned 300 of the children with cyanide convinced that death was better than the evil authorities that were coming to get them, and paratroop out of the sky.

Deny it if you want, but the Society is marching off to somewhere, cheering, clapping, pretending to be happy, thinking they are doing the will of God.

Obedient.

900 dead.

How do we stop it before it's too late?

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20

34

My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)

by Doug Mason in

in my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .

the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .

however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.

jonathan dough

LS, you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. I'll continue posting from my treatise.

The seventy years could not have ended when the exiles returned to Judah in 537 B.C.E. because there existed no king of Babylon to serve for two years between 537 B.C.E. and 539 B.C.E. after Persia began its reign in 539 B.C.E.

If there was no longer a king of Babylon once the reign of Persia began, how could the exiles serve him for two more years until they returned to their homeland? It would not be possible. Jehovah's Witnesses counter that Cyrus the king of Persia was the king of Babylon during those last two years between 539 B.C.E. and 537 B.C.E. so they were still captives serving a king of Babylon, Cyrus. They also claim that at first Cyrus did not alter the policy of the Babylonian Dynasty and therefore the nations continued to serve ‘the king of Babylon’ (thus dipping into the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory for convenience' sake), and that a contemporary clay inscription quotes Cyrus as referring to himself as king of Babylon. Their argument is reproduced here:

Until their release in 537 B.C.E, for the entire duration that the Jewish exiles were held captive in Babylon, it could rightly be said that they were serving the king of Babylon. This is expanded upon in paragraph 10 of an article entitled “The ‘Cup’ That All Nations Must Drink at God’s Hand” that appeared in the September 15, 1979 issue of The Watchtower, p. 24:“ It is true that he [Cyrus] conquered Gentile Babylon in 539 B.C.E., or about two years before the“ seventy years” of desolation of the land of Judah ran out. He proclaimed himself “king of Babylon” and at first did not alter the policy of the Babylonian dynasty of King Nebuchadnezzar.Thus the nations subjugated by Nebuchadnezzar continued to serve “the king of Babylon” 70 years.”

Are Jehovah’s Witnesses justified in making this claim? Yes, for the Bible tells us that after Cyrus II conquered Babylon, Darius the Mede became “king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans,” (Daniel 5:31, 9:1) and shortly thereafter, Cyrus established his kingship over all of Babylon, even being referred to as “Cyrus the king of Babylon” at Ezra 5:13. A contemporary inscription on a clay barrel confirms the accuracy of the Biblical account: “ All the inhabitants of Babylon as well as the entire country of Sumer and Akkad, princes and governors (included), bowed to him (Cyrus) and kissed his feet, jubilant that he (had received) the kingship . . . I am Cyrus, king of the world, great king, legitimate king, king of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad.”—Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, James B. Pritchard, p.316.

Four questions present themselves: a) what year was Cyrus crowned king of Babylon, b) if he was crowned king of Babylon before the Jews returned to Judah why was he referred to as king of Persia during this time, and afterwards, c) if he was not crowned king of Babylon immediately in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell but at a later date, allowing for a gap in time, could the exiles legitimately be said to have served him during that gap which would shorten the seventy year time span, and d) even if Cyrus was crowned king of Babylon before the Jews returned, did he change the empire's policy and free the Jews so that they were not serving as captive slaves to Cyrus even before they began the long journey home?

First, while it is true that at Ezra 5:13 Cyrus was referred to as king of Babylon, it should be noted that it was not necessarily the Jews who referred to Cyrus as the king of Babylon, but the Jews' enemies who were attemping to thwart the rebuilding effort who paraphrased the Jewish response. Their enemies claimed the Jews referred to Cyrus as king of Babylon, which is heresay. The Jewish defense was restated in a letter from the Jews' enemies Tattenai, the governor beyond the river, to King Darius years after their return. The letter was written long after the exiles returned while the task of re-building was underway. It does not provide any evidence that Cyrus was king of Babylon from October 539 B.C.E. to 537 B.C.E.. See generally chapter 5 of the book of Ezra.

Secondly, as a matter of fact Cyrus is referred to as king of Persia six times in verses preceding Ezra 5:13; four instances covering the time period before the exiles departed Babylon (Ezra 1;1, 2, 8), and twice in connection with the Jews’ attempts at rebuilding the temple at Ezra 4:3,5. Before the Jews returned, and even after they returned, they considered Cyrus king of Persia.

Third, Jehovah's Witnesses find support for their theory that the Jews served Cyrus the king of Babylon from 539 B.C.E. to 537 B.C.E. by reference to the above highlighted undated ‘contemporary’ cuneiform inscription on a clay barrel. As it turns out, this clay barrel is no ordinary clay barrel. It is considered to be the first charter of human rights and a very important historical artifact. In addition, it is the document, or charter, by which captives of the Babylonian Empire were freed, including the Jews. And that date, was the first day of spring 538 B.C.E., a mere 6 months or less after Babylon fell:

"The charter of Cyrus the Great, a baked-clay Aryan language (Old Persian) cuneiform cylinder, was discovered in 1878 in excavation of the site of Babylon. In it, Cyrus the Great described his human treatment of the inhabitants of Babylonia after its conquest by the Iranians.
The document has been hailed as the first charter of human rights, and in 1971 the United Nations was published translation of it in all the official U.N. languages. "May Ahura Mazda protect this land, this nation, from rancor, from foes, from falsehood, and from drought". Selected from the book "The Eternal Land".
This is a confirmation that the Charter of freedom of Humankind issued by Cyrus the Great on his coronation day in Babylon could be considered superior to the Human Rights Manifesto issued by the French revolutionaries in their first national assembly. The Human Rights Manifesto looks very interesting in its kind regarding the expressions and composition, but the Charter of Freedom issued twenty three centuries before that by the Iranian monarch sounds more spiritual.
Comparing the Human Rights Manifesto of the French National Assembly and the Charter approved by the United Nations with the Charter of Freedom of Cyrus, the latter appears more valuable considering its age, explicitness, and rejection of the superstitions of the ancient world.
Cyrus the Great entered the city of Babylon in 539 BCE, and after the winter, on the first day of spring, he was officially crowned: My numerous troops moved about undisturbed in the midst of Babylon. I did not allow anyone to terrorise the land of Sumer and Akkad. I kept in view the needs of Babylon and all its sanctuaries to promote their well being. The citizens of Babylon ................. I lifted their unbecoming yoke. Their dilapidated dwellings I restored. I put an end to their misfortunes.
The description of the coronation of Cyrus is the most elaborate one in the world written by the Greek philosopher, politician, and historian Xenephon (Cyropaedia of Xenophon, The Life of Cyrus The Great).
On the day of coronation, Cyrus read the Charter of Freedom out after he put on the crown with his hand in Marduk Temple.
Uncertain and the full text of the Charter was unavailable until an inscription was found during the excavation works in the old city of Ur in Mesopotamia. After the translation of the words, it was found out that the document was the same Charter. It is now kept in the British Museum and it is no exaggeration to say that it is one of the most precious historical records of the world.
In the Charter, after introducing himself and mentioning the names of his father, first, second, and third ancestors, Cyrus says that he is the monarch of Iran, Babylon, and the four continents:
I am Kourosh (Cyrus), King of the world, great king, mighty king, king of Babylon, king of the land of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four quarters, son of Camboujiyah (Cambyases), great king, king of Anshân, grandson of Kourosh (Cyrus), great king, king of Anshân, descendant of Chaish-Pesh (Teispes), great king, king of Anshân, progeny of an unending royal line, whose rule Bel and Nabu cherish, whose kingship they desire for their hearts, pleasure. When I well -disposed, entered Babylon, I set up a seat of domination in the royal palace amidst jubilation and rejoicing. Marduk the great god, caused the big-hearted inhabitations of Babylon to .................. me, I sought daily to worship him.
He continues:

At my deeds Marduk, the great lord, rejoiced and to me, Kourosh (Cyrus), the king who worshipped him, and to Camboujiyah (Cambyases), my son, the offspring of (my) loins, and to all my troops he graciously gave his blessing, and in good sprit before him we glorified exceedingly his high divinity. All the kings who sat in throne rooms, throughout the four quarters, from the Upper to the Lower Sea, those who dwelt in ..................., all the kings of the West Country, who dwelt in tents, brought me their heavy tribute and kissed my feet in Babylon. From ... to the cities of Ashur, Susa, Agade and Eshnuna, the cities of Zamban, Meurnu, Der as far as the region of the land of Gutium, the holy cities beyond the Tigris whose sanctuaries had been in ruins over a long period, the gods whose abode is in the midst of them, I returned to their places and housed them in lasting abodes.
I gathered together all their inhabitations and restored (to them) their dwellings. The gods of Sumer and Akkad whom Nabounids had, to the anger of the lord of the gods, brought into Babylon. I, at the bidding of Marduk, the great lord, made to dwell in peace in their habitations, delightful abodes.
May all the gods whom I have placed within their sanctuaries address a daily prayer in my favour before Bel and Nabu, that my days may be long, and may they say to Marduk my lord, "May Kourosh (Cyrus) the King, who reveres thee, and Camboujiyah (Cambyases) his son ..."
And:

Now that I put the crown of kingdom of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions on the head with the help of (Ahura) Mazda, I announce that I will respect the traditions, customs and religions of the nations of my empire and never let any of my governors and subordinates look down on or insult them until I am alive. From now on, till (Ahura) Mazda grants me the kingdom favor, I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it , and if any one of them rejects it , I never resolve on war to reign. Until I am the king of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions, I never let anyone oppress any others, and if it occurs , I will take his or her right back and penalize the oppressor.
And until I am the monarch, I will never let anyone take possession of movable and landed properties of the others by force or without compensation. Until I am alive, I prevent unpaid, forced labor. To day, I announce that everyone is free to choose a religion. People are free to live in all regions and take up a job provided that they never violate other's rights.
No one could be penalized for his or her relatives' faults. I prevent slavery and my governors and subordinates are obliged to prohibit exchanging men and women as slaves within their own ruling domains. Such a traditions should be exterminated the world over.
I implore to (Ahura) Mazda to make me succeed in fulfilling my obligations to the nations of Iran (Persia), Babylon, and the ones of the four directions." (www.IranChamber.com).

So, even though the "contemporary" barrel may have been undated, within it one finds key dates and policy changes which completely undermine the Jehovah's Witnesses' understanding. The most glaring oversight by Jehovah's Witnesses is the date Cyrus was crowned king of Babylon, the first day of spring 538 B.C.E., roughly six months or less after Babylon fell to the Persians. So, for those six months there was no "king of Babylon" for the Jews to serve and their servitude amounts to around 69 1/2 years, not seventy. And if he was crowned a year later, in the spring of 537 B.C.E. as Jehovah's Witnesses imply, that amounts to a year and a half gap of the Jews not serving any king of Babylon.

Yet, even if Cyrus was crowned king of Babylon, from the first day of spring 538 B.C.E. he set the Jews and all the other Babylonian captives free. He imposed his monarchy (kingship) on no people unless they wished it, which the Jews did not. He outlawed unpaid forced labor (slavery), people were free to live in all regions, and displaced inhabitants were restored to their dwellings. The Jehovah's Witnesses' lack of basic understanding of this is incredulous. A little common sense, coupled with this "clay barrel" go a long way. Were the Jews still captive slaves after Cyrus set them free? No. Were they still captive slaves until they actually picked up their things and started walking home? Of course not. The Jews were not captive servants to any king of Babylon once Persia ruled. Again, Jehovah's Witnesses come up short of seventy years.

Fourth, Jehovah's Witnesses further argue, as stated above, that Cyrus proclaimed himself king of Babylon and at first did not alter the policy of the Babylonian dynasty or Nebuchadnezzar and therefore the Jews continued to serve the king of Babylon seventy years. The problem of course is that the authors of the Watchtower magazine failed to cite any authority for their self-serving statement that “at first [Cyrus] did not alter the policy …”. That statement is false, they offer no proof, and as just shown, Cyrus' Charter of Freedom above disproves any such notion. Cyrus did, in fact, alter the policy and set the Jews free early in his reign, within six months of his first ruling year of numerous years of ruling Babylon. There could not be a more profound policy change affecting the captive Jews, and other captives, than this.

Fifth, citing no verifiable authority they attempt to avoid this dilemma by asserting that the official decree freeing the exiled captives occurred in late 538 B.C.E. or early 537 B.C.E. in a last-ditch effort to push the date of captivity as close to 537 B.C.E. as possible. However, as shown above, it has been solidly established by archeologists and historians the world over that Cyrus’ decree was issued in 538 B.C.E..

Sixth, even assuming for the sake of argument that the roughly 50,000 exiles set free by Cyrus were not technically free until they began walking home after lengthy preparations, the Jehovah's Witnesses' Return theory still falls four months short of seventy years because that is how long it took them to complete the journey according to The Watchtower of May 1, 1952, pp. 271-2:

In either case this would have given sufficient time for the large party of 49,897 Jews to organize their expedition and to make their long four-month journey from Babylon to Jerusalem to get there by September 29-30, 537 B.C., the first of the seventh Jewish month, to build their altar to Jehovah as recorded at Ezra 3:1-3. Inasmuch as September 29-30, 537 B.C., officially ends the seventy years of desolation as recorded at 2 Chronicles 36:20, 21, so the beginning of the desolation of the land must have officially begun to be counted after September 21-22, 607 B.C., the first of the seventh Jewish month in 607 B.C., which is the beginning point for the counting of the 2,520 years.

Setting the Record Straight at pp. 4-5 is in accord with this position and clarifies that the seventy years was exactly seventy years to the month.

At 2 Kings 25:25, 26, the Bible reports that by the seventh month even those left behind, “all the people, from small to great,” fled to Egypt, leaving the land completely desolate, “ without an inhabitant.” As this factor was necessary for fulfillment (Isaiah 6:11, 12; Jeremiah 4:23, 25; 4:27,
29; 6:7, 8; 9:11; 24:8, 10), Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize that the seventy years of desolation could not officially begin to be counted until after the first of the seventh Jewish month.
Ezra 1:1 shows that it was “in the first year of Cyrus, the king of Persia,” or 538/7 B.C.E., that Cyrus issued the decree releasing the Jews from captivity.

The Bible notes that the Jews arrived back in their homeland by the seventh month, Tishri, which would be September 29-30, 537 B.C.E. (Ezra 3:1-3). From this date, Jehovah’s Witnesses count back seventy years to 607 B.C.E. as the year for Jerusalem’s destruction. Thus, the “ devastations of Jerusalem, [namely], seventy years,” spoken of by Daniel the prophet, were exactly seventy years in duration, running from the seventh month of 607 B.C.E. to the seventh month of 537 B.C.E.

Accordingly, if the Jews' seventy year period of captivity ran exactly seventy years from the seventh month of 607 B.C.E. to the seventh month of 537 B.C.E., but they were set free and were not captive during the four months it took them to travel home, their seventy year Return theory fails because they were captive for only sixty-nine years and eight months. They could not have ‘served’ the king of Babylon, even if it was Cyrus, for the full seventy years.

Seventh, the entire argument that Cyrus the Persian, the anointed of Jehovah, who rescued the Jews and freed them was on equal footing with the previous Babylonian kings who slaughtered, captured and enslaved the Jews in the first place contradicts a literal reading of Jehovah’s prophecy to all the nations which was very sweeping in scope. Which of these nations of Jeremiah 25:11 were to serve the king of Babylon seventy years? According to Jeremiah 25:26 they included “... all the kings of the Medes ... all the kings of the north who are near and far away, one after the other, and all the [other] kingdoms of the earth that are on the surface of the ground; ….” This includes Persia and the Medes who conquered Babylon. As such the Jehovah's Witnesses' theory would result in an incompatible irony - during the last two years of the Jews' seventy year Return theory the kings of Persia and the Medes would have had to serve itself.

Ultimately, the Jehovah's Witnesses' arguments supporting their Return theory - that the seventy years ended when the exiles returned to their homeland - are moot and irrelevant because as established above and in accordance with clear, unambiguous Scripture, the seventy years of servitude applied to all nations dominated by the Babylonian Empire, and that dominance, and the nations’ corresponding servitude to the kings(s) of Babylon ended in October 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell.

The seventy year prophecy ended while the Jews were in Babylon and only later did they return home. There is no viable Return theory. And because there is no Return theory, because it is an unscriptural and impossible concept to implement due to its many failures and inconsistencies the Jehovah's Witnesses incorrectly render Jeremiah 29:10 ‘at Babylon,’ rather than ‘for Babylon’. But the latter is what Jehovah through the mouth of Jeremiah intended.

10 “For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years for Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.'"
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